[meteorite-list] "As the Eagle Butte turns"

magellon at earthlink.net magellon at earthlink.net
Tue Mar 5 13:44:39 EST 2002

I received this email from a new meteorite collector who gave me 
permission to share it with you:

"To: magellon

Hi, I liked your info on  Meteorwrongs .  Very interesting.  I did purchase
two small and very interesting Eagle Buttes for a total of $20.  These are
without any doubt slag.  When I contacted the seller he put up a huge fuss
saying that they are indeed meteorites and I was wrong.  I pushed for a
refund and he told me he would refund minus shipping and that they better be
exactly as he shipped them or a refund would be denied.  He said he has very
detailed photos of each piece 'for insurance purposes'.  I am certain he
will not be refunding my money because they will mysteriously show up
damaged even though they are well packaged.  I checked his feedback and
several people have bought these.  The way he has them pictured on his
auction made it difficult to see the foam and air bubbles which would make
anyone suspicious.  You can thank guys like these for turning away new

Collector from TX".  (name removed by request)

Well at least there are no more listings of EB's on eBay!  Congrats to IMCA 
members and others who spoke up.
Ken Newton

[meteorite-list] News from Paleo Guy

Matteo Chinellato mcomemeteorite2000 at yahoo.it
Wed Mar 6 10:51:06 EST 2002

Hello all

Is arrive this email in my excite.it mailbox from
Paleo Guy, take a look:

I sent this message to your other e-mail address, but have 
yet to receive a reply. I am hoping it reached you, but if not 
here it is again. Also in your response to your recent letters 
to my husbands address,  I asure you that it was neither 
him nor I who sent you those vulgar messages and we would
appreciate if you could please keep your future correspondance 
with us a little cleaner as we have no intentions of causing a disturbance.
Thank you
Tammy Crawford
Dear Matteo,
My heartfelt apologies to you for the crude emails you 
received from my former address, as well as the time
it has taken me to write this letter explaining what's 
been happening over the past week. I regret that the
disturbed individual that sent these harsh and disgusting 
(not to mention poorly laid out) emails was a very mouthy 
teen who thought it might be funny to stomp all over my 
identity, NOT a professor, or trustee at a museum, or 
whatever other lies she conjured up to make this horrible 
mess that I am only beginning to clean up.   

To begin with, the reason for the new email address is 
because of the threatening letters I found on my
computer when I returned home from the hospital. I cannot 
recall every letter that was sent and received
as I promptly deleted every one and the contacts that 
pertained to them, but I do remember the harsh tone
and the disgusting language, and I once again make 
an enormous apology. Thankfully, the former address had
just been added to our new laptop and it wasn't that 
much of an inconvenience to change. 

My husband (alias geopaleo guy) was only aware that 
a bid had been placed on one of his items on ebay from
my former address (which was to his surprise as I was
 not home) and later found that it had been placed by
the aforementioned teen (whom I have pleasure of 
calling my cousin). She had been staying at our house
in order to help my husband out with the children while 
I was away and I gave her full permission to use
our laptop, big mistake. She thought it would be a big 
joke to place a bid on one of his items, he told her
not to do it again and cancelled the bid. Shortly after 
when she read the email you sent, she apparently
became furious, and using my identity decided to 
cause some waves. As she received more emails 
she created more waves and that is how we get to the 
point when my address changed. I made the change 
the moment I saw the letters, and deleted every one 
of them, then I banned my cousin from my house telling 
her to get help.

Since then, my husband has been receiving all sorts 
of interesting emails from individuals on your mailing
list. He's been deleting them as he does not know 
what to say to make it up to anyone that has been 
affected by this ordeal. I don't blame him. If there 
is anything I've left out, or haven't explained, or 
if you have any  questions regarding this matter 
please feel free to contact me and I'll try to sort 
things out. Once again I apologize and I hope there 
hasn't been too much of an inconvenience.

The Real, 
Tammy Crawford 
(not Schimpf)

what seems you?

[meteorite-list] News from Paleo Guy

Sharkkb8 at aol.com Sharkkb8 at aol.com
Wed Mar 6 12:43:44 EST 2002

<< If there is anything I've left out, or haven't explained, or if you have 
any questions regarding this
 matter please feel free to contact me and I'll try to sort things out.  >>

Could be true, could be a convoluted excuse with as much veracity to it as 
the "Eagle Butte" meteorite.  If it were me, I would write this seller the 

"There IS one thing you have left out, and that has to do with the reason the 
whole stupid issue arose in the first place.  This is not a meteorite, should 
never again be sold as one, and all specimens previously, fraudulently sold 
as a meteorite should be refunded."  

If and when the seller shows willingness to << sort things out >> by doing 
THAT, we can tag this toe and slam the drawer shut.


[meteorite-list] Re: Eagle Butte Iron Meteorite Item # 1066468831 (fwd)

Tracy Latimer tracyl at lib.state.hi.us
Wed Mar 6 15:42:13 EST 2002

This is the text of an email message I sent to the Crawfords, the people
who are selling the Eagle Butte meteorites.  We'll see what their response
might be.

Tracy Latimer

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:26:55 +0000
To: ktac at telusplanet.net
Subject: Re: Eagle Butte Iron Meteorite Item # 1066468831

I just got the Eagle Butte sample last week, thanks to the vagaries of 
mailing across international borders.  Unfortunately, to my eye, it seems 
you may have been fooled in your collecting by industrial slag, as the piece 
you sent me does not resemble any of my other iron meteorites, but it DOES 
resemble a slag meteorwrong I picked up in Ohio.  I have also heard from 
people with whom I correspond on a meteorite newsgroup; several of them have 
also bought these meteorites and feel their identity is questionable.

I cannot comfortably post feedback without being sure of what I have bought, 
so I am sending the sample to Dr. Carleton Moore at the Center for Meteorite 
Studies at Arizona State University for analysis.  Upon his confirmation, I 
will happily post positive feedback.  If the sample should turn out NOT to 
be a meteorite, I will forego any negative comment should you choose to 
offer a refund to anyone who has  bought an "Eagle Butte Meteorite" from you 
in error.  I am sorry to have to be so cautious, but there seems to be brisk 
trade in rocks of mistaken identity.

Tracy Latimer

[meteorite-list] Eagle Butte - One more time

LabNEMS staff at meteorlab.com
Thu Mar 21 18:07:45 EST 2002


From a customer we received a sample of the material recently
referred to and discussed on this list as Eagle Butte.

Sample chemical analysis summary:

The received material is porous and not homogeneous.  There are varying 
proportions of FeO, MgO, Ca, Al, and Dolomite within "clumps". 
The terms "clast" and "breccias" are not used to define 
these concentrations as the boundaries are poorly defined.

We found no detectable Ni.

In our opinion this is ferrous slag similar to the iron slag used for
road bases.  (actually Canada is an important source of ferrous slag
accounting for about 26% of USA imported needs)

Bernd Pauli wrote:

"Unfortunately there is no crater information in the 5th issue of the
Catalogue. Those among us who still have access to the BBB (the
Big Blue Book = 4th edition of the Catalogue) know that Eagle Butte
is mentioned as a doubtful feature:

A disturbed area, 10 km in diameter and 30-40 million years old, may be
meteoritic, P.B. Robertson and R.A.F. Grieve, Journ. Roy. Astron. Soc.
Canada, 1975, vol. 69, p. 1, but compare T.B. Haites and H. van Hees,
Journ. Alberta Soc. Petrol. Geologists, 1962, vol. 10, p. 511. Bore
holes and electric log data for the structure, H.B. Sawatzky in, Impact
and Explosion Cratering, eds. D.J. Roddy, R.O. Pepin and R.B. Merrill,
Pergamon Press (New York), 1977, p. 461."

To Bernd's contribution I would add the work of Hodge and Sawatzky:

"Eagle Butte, Alberta
Lat/Long: N49 deg. 42', W110 deg. 30'
Diameter: 19 km
Age <65 Ma
Condition: Eroded"

"Eagle Butte is in the Cypress Hills area of southern
Alberta (Canada).  Cypress Hills Provincial Park occupies
part of the eastern portion of the structure. The structure was
recognized as a geophysical anomaly long before it was found
to be an impact feature. Both surface geology and sub-surface
information from wells support its identification as such."

"The geophysical contours show a central uplift and a surrounding
ring depression."

"Meteorite Craters and Impact Structures of the Earth", Hodge, Paul,
1994, University of Cambridge Press.


"Two probable Late Cretaceous astroblemes in Western Canada:
Eagle Butte, Alberta and Dumas, Saskatchewan". Geophysics, 41,
1261 - 1271"

Is there existing meteoritic material associated with the Eagle Butte
structure?  I don't know.  All that I can say for sure is that the material we
received is not meteoritic.

A word of caution:

Some of the longer-term members of the List may remember
our involvement with material that came to be referred to as
the "Emerald Meteorite".  (summary story about the "Emerald
Meteorite", for those unfamiliar with it is at:

http://www2.suite224.net/~editorsb/updates/meteorite.htm )

Our chemical analysis showed it to be a foundry
by-product, probably from the lining of a refractory kiln and not meteoritic.
Some members may still have samples of this material in their collections.

Legal consequences resulting from this were unpleasant.  Fortunately
Tim McCoy's (Smithsonian) independent analysis concurred with ours
and the finders/promoters backed off.

My point ( something I'm sure that many List members have experienced)
is that it is sometimes very, very, difficult to convince someone
untrained or unfamiliar with meteoritics that what they have is of
terrestrial occurrence. If they choose a legal path it can become
costly and uncomfortable for all.  I find it far better in these 
that when asked, to offer an "opinion" on the material rather than to
speak in "absolutes" that may be heard as a denouncement.

Everyone has an opinion but denouncements can get you sued.

Of course, this is just my "opinion".

Russ K./NEMS

[meteorite-list] Eagle Butte -- a parting blast

Tracy Latimer tracyl at lib.state.hi.us
Fri Mar 22 02:12:35 EST 2002

Since Anne has noted the list is quiet.... :-)
I just got my sample back from ASU, and the verdict is that it is indeed
slag, like anyone is surprised.  Kudos to them for a speedy analysis,
and I'm really sorry to have wasted their time with something I was 99%
sure was junk, but thank you for the reverification.  Time to say bad
things to geopaleo_guy.

Tracy Latimer
--"You may fire when ready."  Grand Moff Tarkin--

Eagle Butte

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